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Xfire Debate Club 12th Meeting: Independent Games
January 25th, 2008 (Open Debate Transcript)

 

[Xfire] SDaria: THE DEBATE HAS BEGUN. PLEASE DEBATE ONLY IN THIS ROOM. ALL OTHER CHATTER SHOULD BE IN THE UNOFFICIAL CHATTER ROOM.

[Xfire] SDaria: YOU CAN ALL TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU LOVE XAROTH IN THE OTHER ROOM. =oP

 

lostsoul27: XD

[dec]Chaoman: well said :P

lostsoul27: hey your cool too

[dec]Chaoman: I was talking to SDaria.

[dec]Chaoman: sorry ^_^;

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: If it wornt for indi games there never be video games at all IMO

Sister Grimm™: tru tru

spetnatz0warrior: tru tru

Jokәr: Nah, they'd just be more expensive.

spetnatz0warrior: ye

spetnatz0warrior: buh

spetnatz0warrior: more queallitu

Jokәr: Ture

Jokәr: True even

oxyhemoglobin: Well, all the big companies got their start as independent. Some of the first famous game developments were made by lowly kids who modded their games (Here's looking at you, Wolfenstein + Smurfs)

Colonel Tempest: well everything has to start somewhere..

spetnatz0warrior: ye

spetnatz0warrior: gud point

Sister Grimm™: mmhmm

[dec]Chaoman: that is true.

oxyhemoglobin: Wow, they have one of the developers for Gish over there. Cool.

=CK=Daemon -Matt: Some companies dont start, mostly some buy out other companies and skip the whole process of starting.

spetnatz0warrior: te

Colonel Tempest: but the company they buy out still had to start :D

spetnatz0warrior: i was thinkin of srtin a game compin

spetnatz0warrior: buh

spetnatz0warrior: i cant make games

spetnatz0warrior: sad

spetnatz0warrior: lol

oxyhemoglobin: True. Kind of seems a bit like those bands in the 90s that were put together entirely by a label. Seems to sort of squash creativity in a way, doesn't it?

=CK=Daemon -Matt: Yes, but when they take over the ideas of the original company is lost and its like the company did not exist to begin with

spetnatz0warrior: tht is a good point

.. World ..: How does ind. game producer find the money

[dec]Chaoman: ads

.. World ..: it must cost a lot to start a game...

{AFP}Nhb93: loans?

=CK=Daemon -Matt: it does

Recon.: i wouldnt want to start a game company alot work has got to be done, i am a programming student , id rather make the games for a company

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: look at crytek they made far cry as a indi studio

Jokәr: Not neccecarrily

=CK=Daemon -Matt: Some Get jobs.

Tolkienfanatic: Ads and subscription models, mainly.

=CK=Daemon -Matt: and use there own money

=CK=Daemon -Matt: while others are able to use other means.

=CK=Daemon -Matt: ads and microtransactions.

{AFP}Nhb93: plus they aren't tied by time cnstraints

spetnatz0warrior: ye

.. World ..: Could they make money with premiums?

speedrockracer: farcry was a demo for new nividea tech

spetnatz0warrior: lol

.. World ..: I don,t remember indi games with premiums

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: and they did not think they would geet as popupaly as they did

Theranos: Well it seems that today you make a mockup of a game you'd like to make and then it never gets done, then someone stumbles upon it and says hey I like that it should be done

{AFP}Nhb93: so they can just work for a while till they finish

[Rampant Games] Jay: If you are just starting out, I'd recommend getting a job at a mainstream studio. You can learn a lot.

Jokәr: I'm in charge of an Indie companie trying to get out first game off the ground (hopefully by winter '08) and we arn't putting a dime into it. It's tough.

spetnatz0warrior: it takes a long time to make a game

Tolkienfanatic: Lots of big name games started indie... look at Pokemon.

spetnatz0warrior: even if u have tons of money

spetnatz0warrior: POKEMON

[Rampant Games] Jay: Then when you've learned the ropes, you can graduate to indie.

.. World ..: Joker, you,ve got to invest money

spetnatz0warrior: now that was a cllasic game

Sister Grimm™: *shivers*

Colonel Tempest: well with an indi game you play it because of what it is , not because of who made it

=CK=Daemon -Matt: please dont compare pokemon

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *****FIRST QUESTION*****

 

[14:10] John Bardinelli: First things first: what the heck is an "indie game" anyway? A guy in his mom's basement hammering out code? A studio unattached to a publisher? Both? Neither?

Recon.: yea .. but it takes even longer when theres a problem and u have 6 people debigging it

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: Mount and Blade is even made a indi team

LOKGARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR: Its a guy in his mom's basement!

Jokәr: No, not at least in the early stages you don't

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: they just now goot a publisher

Sister Grimm™: its a grassroots organization

spetnatz0warrior: 1st one

Theranos: I consider Indie to be a game with a low pop dev team and act as their self publisher

.. World ..: I agree

oxyhemoglobin: Just a game made buy a guy or his team. Mostly unpaid until the game is done. No grants. No company. I cite Alien Hominid and others, such as flOW - made as a thesis

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: it both

Jokәr: I can agree with that

{AFP}Nhb93: I would say that Indie is any game company, or person, not tied to a big name corporation. They make games because they like to make games, and don't care *as much* about the money.

Tolkienfanatic: Indie is simply independent in every sense possible.  They have as few ties as possible, and usually as few employees as possible as well.  Reference BitBlot, makers of Aquaria.

[dec]Chaoman: 1 t othree developers, right?

Zombie: An indie game is a game developed for the fans, not just teh money

speedrockracer: i think its a indie gameis a game with total freedom in what you make

spetnatz0warrior: ye i agree 100 present

=CK=Daemon -Matt: indie is the ideas of the world. Not of money. indie is what comes from peoples heads, while money is forced labor...

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: a studio that not atticat to a publiser

Riobux: What's the question?

Theranos: in a sense Valve would have fallen under my description before they got scooped by EA

spetnatz0warrior: ya i agree

Sister Grimm™: a company not owned by a major corparation like sony or nintendo...

spetnatz0warrior: buh this process takes time

Zombie: as with mainstream games, they could make a crap game and be happy as long as it sold well

Colonel Tempest: but proffeisonal game coders/artists probably still enjoy their job.. who wouldn't like to make games here?

spetnatz0warrior: and indie makes sure that in that amout of time

Recon.: but could indie games ever get enough money o advertise, and make high quality games say like activision and EA

oxyhemoglobin: Not necessarily. It's not like the guys at BioWare don't love their games when they make them. Bioshock just happened to get them huge amounts of attention and money. They still love games for games.

spetnatz0warrior: its 100 percent

spetnatz0warrior: good

Ketchup: I think an indie game is a game developed by people for themselves, not for other people

{AFP}Nhb93: I don't agree with that

spetnatz0warrior: i do

=CK=Daemon -Matt: me 2

=CK=Daemon -Matt: i dont

[dec]Chaoman: I agree with ketchup

Zombie: Not necessarily, Ketchup

oxyhemoglobin: You think an indie game isn't distributed?

Sister Grimm™: me too

Sister Grimm™: sure it is

oxyhemoglobin: How would we know that they exist if we didn't get to play them?

Theranos: But isn't it possible for a Studio to still be Indie yet not care about the game and only want the money?

=CK=Daemon -Matt: Why should indie be limited to the word of small?

Sister Grimm™: but not for profit... for fun

=CK=Daemon -Matt: when they can be SO big?

Riobux: An indie game is when a game is made out of love of creating a game and not because they'll recieve money.

Zombie: One thing that would drive me to develop an indie game is that other gamers would appreciate my work as much as I did

{AFP}Nhb93: Why would you make a game for only yourself to play? I understand wanting to make that game that you've always wanted to play, but then you would know every part of it and it would loose it's fun.

spetnatz0warrior: WIT SISTER GRIMM said

Jokәr: Most of the time, Indie developers are those who are, not neccecarilly unknown, but usually not known to the vast majority of the population, and therefore has no way to get themselves out there. Almost by defenition, once you get your company to be known by more of a general population, they stop being Independant.

[Xfire] Supercop007: When I hear the term "indie", I think of a small development team with little or no financial backing from outside investors or overarching company.

spetnatz0warrior: u titakky agree

oxyhemoglobin: Theranos, those people aren't the kind of indie developers who make games people love. Games are art and you need to love the art when you make it. Money simply can't be your only goal, or you end up with a crappy game.

Colonel Tempest: when i hear indie i think of music :D

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: i agree with supercop

Riobux: True Supercop007, but that's partly because people become greedy.

spetnatz0warrior: when i hear Indie, i think of the Indie's no offence

speedrockracer: lol me too

Theranos: When I first heard the term Indie or Indy as some call it I thought it was some new race genre

{AFP}Nhb93: Supercop brough up a good definition

spetnatz0warrior: so wut are we debaltin on

[dec]Chaoman: I believe goblin has a point. If you do not enjoy making games and are only in it for the money, they can turn out badly.

oxyhemoglobin: The question was "what is an indie game"

Recon.: personally i dont think indie game "companies" will beat out higher developers for a while, with the release of COD4, i dont really think a small indie company could make that in a decent amount of time

#-(OO۩Tony  Briere۩ OO)-#: I think indie is games that are made for fun and not for money only.

Riobux: Thanks globin.

lostsoul27: lol

Jokәr: I agree, tony

spetnatz0warrior: Indie games are made for pleasure purposes not money making schemes

speedrockracer: i agree with tony

.. World ..: They do them for money, they've gotta live

lostsoul27: ya

spetnatz0warrior: ye

{AFP}Nhb93: Indie game makers lack the funds and the hardware, but not nesecarily the knowlegde or the drive, to make the big budget titles

lostsoul27: he has a point

Jokәr: No

spetnatz0warrior: buh then do go deep in to bussiness

Theranos: yea

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: maybe but they are not expecting to get as much money then big games

Recon.: thats true.. knowledge but no funds

Riobux: I always find indie games more interesting because they don't mind that their game will not reach out to a wide market and don't mind offending a few.

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: Indie games can be sold for money, just not ridiculous amounts like $20-$60

Jokәr: I think that Indie developers could definately do it and not make a dime.

Colonel Tempest: indie games don't suffer from being forced into deadlines either?

Riobux: It's like Postal 1 and 2.

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: more like $5-$10

oxyhemoglobin: Some indie game devs have the hardware etc, but they may pay for it with their own other jobs. Sometimes indie games are a hobby.

{AFP}Nhb93: I think an Indie game can be sold for at least #30 depending on it.

Riobux: They don't care they may offend people, they just go out and create the game they enjoy.

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: to make a game it probably costs them like 1/10000000000 of what they will earn with it

spetnatz0warrior: for indie develpopers

.. World ..: indie game as a hobby wouldn't grow fast and healthy imo

spetnatz0warrior: games are juz a hobby

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: think about it this way, $30 indy game, or COD4?

Sister Grimm™: games are a lifestyle dude

.. World ..: cod4

spetnatz0warrior: indy game

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: i too think valve as a indi dev componey and think of them as big supportes of indi componeys

Theranos: Well Postal 1 and 2 were great but just not taken seriously... They, in my opinion were great, great games heck I still have them installed and it just shows what an indie company can do

speedrockracer: depends on the indie game ..

spetnatz0warrior: ye

spetnatz0warrior: true say

oxyhemoglobin: Wasn't there a game made recently where you play as a kid carrying out a school shooting? Raised a lot of hell, but it became popular and I think the guy has made games and had them become popular simply because of his background

[dec]Chaoman: I remeber that.

{AFP}Nhb93: That's the problem today. People only go for big name titles that they know they will like. I would take a chance on an Indie game if it looked really good. Not over CoD 4, because that is my franchise of choice.

oxyhemoglobin: Recently as in, a year or two. I'm fuzzy on the dates.

Sister Grimm™: likewise

spetnatz0warrior: ye same

Jokәr: There are alot of indie games that got popular, but mostly after they did, they stoped being inde.

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: alot of indie games are better than games made by like a million persons working on it for like 5years

Riobux: Valve was an indie company, but now personally, I think they are roaming around the grey area.

Theranos: Wasn't that the Tech school and then someone made a flash the week after

Theranos: I agree Rio

Riobux: With EA on their side and program which supports many games...

Recon.: indie games are nice for  "free-time" but they could never be played on a large scale, you would need to patch it and make updates, fix bugs and have a team that keeps up with these updates

spetnatz0warrior: Every thin started off indie

Sister Grimm™: and what about popcap?

Jokәr: Valve stopped being indie with H/L one imho

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: @Recon I agree

oxyhemoglobin: Well, would you classify some MMOs as indie? FlyFF? Maplestory?

Zombie: Recon, no games are flawless

{AFP}Nhb93: As do I (with Recon)

Theranos: Sure why not

Sister Grimm™: popcap started with insanquarium and now its HUGE

Riobux: It's hard to tell if they are indie because they enjoy making games or if they are a large company due to the amount of fans and the general size of the company.

=CK=Daemon -Matt: You cant recreate a label that is placed on you. There is reason your labeled and you should try to strive to improve that label  untill the point that people WANT to earn that label for themselfs

oxyhemoglobin: They get updates and attention but they probably aren't involved in the stock market or anything.

Ketchup: When a company makes a game, they are doing it primarily for others; so that they can make money. When an indie developer makes a game, they are doing it for themselves, what makes the games so special is that they would still be made even if no one else but the developers  played them - I think this helps create better games

Recon.: yes thats why they patch it

Jokәr: Both of those are definately indie, as well as some other games like that, Like Gunz.

spetnatz0warrior: ye

spetnatz0warrior: Gunz is a cool game

speedrockracer: indie games are more arty and creative than "other games"

.. World ..: Gunz is full of glitches

Theranos: I mean Drift City I thought was indie and I still love that game lol

Riobux: Gunz is personally ruined due to hackers.

spetnatz0warrior: anyone heard of ARMA, i heard it was Indie

{AFP}Nhb93: Well, if you have never heard of the company and they don't seel the boxed games, and rely on microtransactions, I would consider it Indie.

oxyhemoglobin: I never really liked Gunz. Sometimes the concept of a game can be overshadowed by the poor showmanship of the players, you know what I mean?

[dec]Chaoman: I have a question for you all. Do you think that indi MMO's are better than the big company ones? Or do you think that the other ones are better?

.. World ..: I agree

Jokәr: Well if you say gunz is ruined due to hackers, then you'd have to legitimately say games like Counter Strike are too

Riobux: Chaoman, there's no real difference personally.

{AFP}Nhb93: Good question Chaoman.

.. World ..: Indies mmo are repetitive imo

spetnatz0warrior: Indie is bacilly a allrounder company

Recon.: another problem, indie games are easily hacked in my opionion, they lack good game engines,

oxyhemoglobin: Well, I can tell you that I still pay for my WoW account, yet I quit FlyFF after I got a broom.

Zombie: I like the Indie MMOs better

[Xfire] Supercop007: In the case of Valve and Half-Life 1, I believe the point where they crossed from indie to mainstream was when they got Sierra to publish their game.

Sister Grimm™: i've recently discovered an awesome game "ragezone" and only a few hudred people know about it... and yet its still pwnsome

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I find that a lot of indie MMOs are less enjoyable, because many of them resort to grind to fill time

Riobux: It entirely depends on the company themself if they create a good MMO.

oxyhemoglobin: The ingenuity stream sort of runs dry after a period of time when they don't have funds, etc

Theranos: I dont know some are and some aren't but DC was just so cute to me I had to play it

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: Everyone can be an indie games developer, indie games can be made by people from anywhere that never went to school to learn about games developing.

spetnatz0warrior: u cat beat a complany that sepiclliiez in a direct concept

spetnatz0warrior: Indie is allrounder

=WFC=Dranzer[CoD/OG]: Indie MMOs have interesting concepts then what is seen in regular MMOs

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: What I'm saying is that if someone packaged Maplestory or Runescape or even Gunz, would you actually pay $30 to play it? or Would you rather buy a more popular and more professionaly made game?

spetnatz0warrior: cant*

Jokәr: Once again, I agree with Tony :P

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****

 

[14:19] John Bardinelli: Indie is an attitude?

Zombie: Indie MMOs usually have a more welcoming community, imo

{AFP}Nhb93: I would buy that better game.

Sister Grimm™: it can be...

spetnatz0warrior: ye

speedrockracer: yes i think its more of an attitude

Riobux: Indie isn't an attitude. It's a way of life.

.. World ..: Big companies are the one who will invest the money and think power for original gaming concepts.  Some indi might be original, but most of them are imo not so different then eachother.

spetnatz0warrior: i greee

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: I agree with World

Theranos: Couldn't say it is but I guess it could be but it's more of a name tag

{AFP}Nhb93: It could be. Depending on how much into it the devs get.

oxyhemoglobin: Indie as an attitude? I guess it is. Not necessarily.

spetnatz0warrior: it can be

[SFV]Android - Chris: In my opinion, an indy game is made by a developer who's current profession in life isnt making games, and is not tied to a publisher

Recon.: i agree indie is definetly not an attitude

Sister Grimm™: there will always be "indie kids" who get pissed when you don't know of an obscure game...

Jokәr: Agreed. If it was an attitude, then companies like Ubisoft or Bungie could go around claiming independance.

.. World ..: true

Riobux: You don't get up and think "I think I'll be indie today and support the little guy!". It's a way of life, you either support them and do things for the love of it and not the money or you don't.

{AFP}Nhb93: How do you figure that?

Jokәr: And if they did that, they'd ruin the whole spirit of indie games.

spetnatz0warrior: If u want Indie to be a attitiude, then it is, if u dont, then its not...it depend on how u look at it

Recon.: i agrree wit joker

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *******SUB QUESTION*******

 

[14:21] John Bardinelli: So the possibilities for an indie developer really aren't limited?

spetnatz0warrior: ye

oxyhemoglobin: Well, yeah. You get the same thing in music and movies. But the problem with that is that some indie games flat suck. Anyone see the movie The Tattoist? Awful, awful film.

Recon.: yes

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: of course not

{AFP}Nhb93: I think they are.

spetnatz0warrior: thre not limited

Zombie: Limited only by the imagination of the devs

Jokәr: Yes and no.

Theranos: They are limited by the checkbook

spetnatz0warrior: lol

spetnatz0warrior: good point

Theranos: Other than that no

=WFC=Dranzer[CoD/OG]: I agree with Theranos :p

Sister Grimm™: no they can do whatever they dangwell please

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: Only limited by time, patience, and creativity

Zombie: and their coding abilities of course o.o

aNti_PXShaman: I think that Indie games really, are different and that they add more spice to the current gaming selection

{AFP}Nhb93: Indie devs can only make what they have time to make, and what they have the money, and hardware to make.

.. World ..: Indie developer are only limited by the lack of money

[dec]Chaoman: hm... indie is an attitude? THinking on a proffessional level , I would say it is more of a type of buisiness venture. you have a small group of people working on a game. Big companies have a lot more. So I would say it's not really an attitude, but the situation of the developers.

Sister Grimm™: and ONLY money

Jokәr: It is limited due to funding. An indie dev isn't going to go out and buy an million dollar engine, because they won't make a million dollars.

Recon.: Yes for sure, there is a limit to wat indie companies can do, wheather its knowledge, or money something is holding them back

Riobux: MMOAddict nailed it on the head. That is the only thing that holds indie companies down.

.. World ..: yeah, they are quite free to do anything

Zombie: World, some Indie games don't have a budget

.. World ..: Possible

[SFV]Android - Chris: the possibilities are obviously limited by money, as the high end software is expensive | EXCEPTION: when this indy dev makes  this software himself, it is unlimited

Zombie: And some Indie devs aren't doing it for the money

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: As an answer to Xaroth's question, I think indie games are more named by either the devs or the press, or sometimes the players

Riobux: Luckily, they're not held down by "I've got to impress this person and that group of people".

Cougar: the no limits aspect comes from the "indie" attitude, the desire to inovate

spetnatz0warrior: Money is somethin that controls evrthing and evrone, the only limit to Indie

Recon.: time is also an issue

aNti_PXShaman: But if we are talking about indie companies, wouldn't that mean that most bigger companies probably started out as indie companies?

Sister Grimm™: and that's what makes indie games awesome...

oxyhemoglobin: The possibilities for an indie developer are only as limited as their imagination and supply of software. Sure, a kid who wants to make a mod for Oblivion may not have 3DSMax, but there's always Blender. You can find substitutes to fuel your game development.

Theranos: But with things like Xfire making Indie shine I think money is starting to not become a problem

[Xfire] Supercop007: I wouldn't consider indie to be an attitude, but a mindset balancing time vs. money.

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *****SUB QUESTION******

 

[14:22] [uTime] Xaroth: Well, now there's a question.  (not to trample on John's feet here...)  Who gets to decide whether something is "indie" or not?

Sister Grimm™: they push they envelope

{AFP}Nhb93: Indie games may not have a budget, but they need funds to make the games don't they?

Jokәr: True, rio which is a way they have a better advantage than mainstream companies.

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: the players

Theranos: The Majority

Sister Grimm™: The general public I guess...

[SFV]Android - Chris: obviously its in the player's/consumer's mind

speedrockracer: the ppl

spetnatz0warrior: without funds, no progress

Jokәr: The developer, in some aspects

{AFP}Nhb93: I'm with MMOaddict

Sister Grimm™: SOCIETY

Recon.: well its indie depending on the popularity of the dev team and size of it

.. World ..: It,s easy to know if a game is individually made or not.  No need of someone to decide.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I don't think anybody "gets" to decide. I think people do or don't, and if the majority or the media thinks it is, then they go along with it

[SFV]Android - Chris: there is no strict definition to an indy game

W00tbeer1: I would say the players, they have the biggest impact on the games

spetnatz0warrior: ya

{AFP}Nhb93: Good point by Chris

oxyhemoglobin: It's not really a decision so much as fact. You look at a game and you can just sort of see, they made this with no money, the graphics are poorish, etc

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: Original SimCity Source Released

Zombie: So, the only motivation to make games is the funding you'll get, spetnatz?

Theranos: Or even more so it could be the player themself who probably doesn't care if other people think it is indie or not

spetnatz0warrior: i agree with WootBeer

speedrockracer: maybe its even like that in some countrys a gmae is considerd indie and in other its not ...

aNti_PXShaman: Indie games imo have a huge hult followings that really keep them alive

Sister Grimm™: yes but subconciously people decide whether or no a game is Indie

Riobux: No one decides what is indie. It's like an aura people feel. It's like quality in a game. No one decides "this game has quality", you can just feel it when people have put a lot of time and effort for the sheer enjoyment of you to enjoy it and just to create the game.

Jokәr: Actually... I disagree with Josiah

aNti_PXShaman: cult*

Theranos: herself too

[UA]WelehoRogan: Indie is a magic word to describe games that are the virgin journeys of a new company to make people expect innovation and tolerate a little crudeness in graphics aprt.

oxyhemoglobin: I agree, Riobux.

[SFV]Android - Chris: speedrockracer: that point is mute since indy is over the internet, mostly

{AFP}Nhb93: Are you saying that an Indeo game can't be of a high quality? (Rio)

[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: If someone plays an indie game, and then a company game, they will be able to tell the difference, especially if they are and experienced gamer

Jokәr: I think that even if you have creative control, you can still be mainstream.

Theranos: ok i go with riobux now better answer lol good job mate

Zombie: Agreed, Joker

Recon.: i think the Developer team should decide if they are indie or not

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: there can be progress without funds, just think about the first guy on the earth, he had no money and made himself a house so for indie : You just have a computer at your home and you can start creating your own game with what you have at the moment, you don't have to go around and try to get the best you can to create your game, you just use what you have so it's not mendatory to have money

Sister Grimm™: on the surface someone might not go out and say THATS INDIE but in their mind they're thinking along those lines...

Zombie: Mainstream still has room for creativity

[dec]Chaoman: I belive that some indie games can be high quality. come to think of it, isn't exteel indie?

spetnatz0warrior: i think defining Indie is a right to the developer team

spetnatz0warrior: not anyone else

.. World ..: You need money for the computer internet, Tony

Recon.: right

oxyhemoglobin: If an indie game is exceptionally high quality, I'm leaning towards guessing it's not very indie. If you looked at the staff and the people behind its development you could probably see that it was funded; either that or the devs are just exceptionally gifted at making something beautiful with nothing

[UA]WelehoRogan: I can't see any real difference between "indie" and "mainstream" and such games.. some indie games have better graphics and mainstream games do have innovation in them (at times)

Ketchup: I think developers can try to be indie, but it's the players who are the ones who really decide. You can't judge yourself as well as other people can

Jokәr: Agreed, and at the same time, Indie devs still have to conform to something if they want to make a penny.

Riobux: Not at all. They are limited by the money though and lack of "workers" so in general, there is less quality. But you don't need high quality to enjoy a game.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: flOw is polished; look at any Introversion game

Zombie: Yuo don't need the net to develop a game, World

{AFP}Nhb93: Mainstream doesn't have room for creativity. People only do what it takes to make money in Mainstream. That's why Indie has the right idea.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I don't think that polish has anything to do with indie or not

spetnatz0warrior: gud point ketup

.. World ..: yup, the concept is the thing that interests me the most in games

Theranos: Yea I disagree that Indie has a quality threshold

.. World ..: Indies are free to make the concept they like

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: You don't need internet to get programs, just go at a friends house and get the files you need then get them on your computer ^^

[SFV]Android - Chris: spetnatz, if a dev calls his game an indy and you see it in your local walmart, i would think thats not a indy game

Sister Grimm™: if high quality was needed text based games wouldn't exist

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I mean look at big name games that are absolute technical crap

spetnatz0warrior: Concept and Stoyline the to mahor things in a Game

.. World ..: yup

Jokәr: Not always

{AFP}Nhb93: I disagree Chris. Indie games can be boxed and shipped.

spetnatz0warrior: ye

oxyhemoglobin: The earliest indie games were distributed on big ol' floppy disks.

aNti_PXShaman: Indie games can really look watever they want to look like, I think that true gamers will judge on the gameplay and story AS LONG as the graphics aren't terrible for the time

Jokәr: Some people play something just for the gameplay or even just the graphics.

.. World ..: possible

[dec]Chaoman: Grimm raised an interestng point.

{AFP}Nhb93: Which is a sad shame Joker

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: Big games creators are asking themselves : what will make people buy my games.

Indie games creators are probably asking themselves : What will make my game original and fun ?

[SFV]Android - Chris: but that gets back to our definitons of indy, Nhb, and there truely isnt one

[UA]WelehoRogan: Jsut because game isn't indie doesn't mean it doesn't have innovation. For example, metal gear series.

Theranos: Do games have to be original now a days?

Jokәr: But at the same time, going back to a previous example, if an Indie game is good enough, people won't care about graphics. i.e.: posta

.. World ..: of course

spetnatz0warrior: yo even if graphces are bad, and the stoyline is great, i think if anyone plays, they will not move untill the game is over

oxyhemoglobin: Original? No. God no. Look at the public and look at what they'll buy, even though there are other games exactly like it.

Riobux: Of course Rogan, but people are held down less when they are indie by what everyone else likes. So they are more likely to hit something big.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: @oxyhemoglobin: EA Sports titles

.. World ..: graphics do matter, spet.  Runescape graphics scare me away.

[SFV]Android - Chris: though i agree with you in principle, spetnatz, in the day of Mass Effect, it is becoming less and less true

Ketchup: Some times it's clear what an indie developer is and what a big company is, the closer the two get in their practices the harder it is to define the difference

Riobux: Look at RedOctane. They were indie and hit on something big.

๑۩۞۩๑Sphiroth[XAROTH FTW]: Story line is muh better than graphics. Graphics are only a bonus.

spetnatz0warrior: ye

{AFP}Nhb93: Good writing and a god storyline makes a game worth keeping with. WoW has no storyline when I tried it out. CoD 4 had a storyline, and while short, it kept you playing the whole way through.

Zombie: Runescape gameplay scares me away

spetnatz0warrior: lol

spetnatz0warrior: ye sdame here

๑۩۞۩๑Sphiroth[XAROTH FTW]: runescape sucks.

[SFV]Android - Chris: lol runescape

Zombie: The graphics are low on my list of what makes a good game

speedrockracer: i agree

Jokәr: But warrior, if someone developed a new text-based game, can you honestly say you'd play it, even if the storyline was epic? Would you even know it existed?

Riobux: CoD4's ending was pretty sad...

spetnatz0warrior: i dont agree

Theranos: Yet Runescape is still a leading game out there

Sister Grimm™: if characters are deep and thought out, and the storyline flow and I can connect, the graphics could be stick figures for all I care...

[SFV]Android - Chris: because it has name recongition

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: leading because it's free and well known

DGMurdockIII: with the internet now if you have a good game and now how to get the word out anyone could make mony off there game

.. World ..: Guild Wars has the best storyline I ever saw, and is a pretty popular game.  It's not indi, btw.

๑۩۞۩๑Sphiroth[XAROTH FTW]: all I can say about runeshit...

Run Escape!

#-(OO۩Tony  Briere۩ OO)-#: I think the best ideas comes from indie, then there are these big companies that see that people like it so they just try to improve a few things and then they show it to people. Indie games are less knowns so a lot of people thinks that the games have been tought by the BIG creator but the idea was from the indie game developer.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I avoid RS like the plague

spetnatz0warrior: COD 4 was actully a huge debate issue

spetnatz0warrior: because

[SFV]Android - Chris: I agree, the best ideas do originiate with indy

spetnatz0warrior: the gameplay did not aloow comand of the Russians

Zombie: I'd play a text-based game, even today

spetnatz0warrior: SMAE

oxyhemoglobin: I played through Zork last year. I just found out about it and I picked it up and loved it. The humor was the main catalyst for my interest.

spetnatz0warrior: SAMR**

[dec]Chaoman: one thing I notice about the graphics situation. A lot of big companies talk a lot about graphics.

{AFP}Nhb93: I need a little bit of graphics for me to play it, but I wouldn't be against a text based game if it was epic.

[UA]WelehoRogan: I play text based games, too. They often have a special feeling to them, and text-muds usually have better RP

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: not just talk, look at Crysis

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: yup alot of text based games are great, even if they are cheaper than others.

.. World ..: I doubt best ideas are from indy.  Look at starcraft, guild wars, many more.

Theranos: Heck text based are great look at Uplink

oxyhemoglobin: Look at Crysis. Not even that good a game but everyone talks about its "amazing graphical quality"

Jokәr: Would you actually know it existed though? How much advertising power does a text-based-game have anymore?

Riobux: Yeah, it's a shame that all they do is pump as much good graphics in as possible.

[Xfire] Supercop007: Given the trend towards "casual" gaming, fun is quickly becoming the first priority.  Just look at how popular the Wii and Flash games have become. Basically, if it's fun, people will play it regardless of how the product looks or how much it costs.

Sister Grimm™: here here!

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: yup, uplink is probably one of the best games i've ever played.

oxyhemoglobin: True, supercop

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: And i don't think it costed like a million to make it.

.. World ..: Flsh games will be fun for a really short period of time.

{AFP}Nhb93: Crysis - big name company, outdated gameplay. What point is playing a game if the only good thing it when you're not fighting, only looking at scenery?

oxyhemoglobin: Never played uplink, but it's on my list. See? Word of mouth.

.. World ..: They are too repetitive

Riobux: Rune Viking Warlord didn't have revolutionary graphics in it's time and I loved every minute of the game. The storyline was hardly good but the sheer gameplay.

spetnatz0warrior: we got to tell the comanine about the graphice, they are more grapgince ther interesting gameplay

Theranos: I disagree Casual are for some people but not all, I can play one for 10 minutes but then I just get bored

FrostFenix: depending on how decent the game is and how many people back up that fact that its good drags people into playing that game

spetnatz0warrior: HALO 2 had a stupid storyline

aNti_PXShaman: You could be a programer and go totally ga ga over the engine

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: Graphics doesn't makes games.

[UA]WelehoRogan: World- yes, but most of people play games that don't require hours to get anywhere

[SFV]Android - Chris: but people can play CS "casually", and i bet people play games that are considered "casual" hardcore

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I see a lot of comparison between casual and indie games

[Xfire] Artaxs: Well, Narbacular Drop was an Indie Game, but Portal is a (polished, wonderful, innovative and FUN) Corporate game owned by Valve.

Jokәr: Repetitive is not always a bad thing - look at games like Pac-Man and Tetris. they were *only* repeatitive.

oxyhemoglobin: All the Halo games had silly storylines. It was the online community that kept it together.

Ketchup: I think indie games always have the potential to be better, becuase there are no deadlines, there is no need to "play it safe" with certain features - indie games can push and inovate more becuase there is no risk

oxyhemoglobin: But Portal was made by the same team as Narbacular Drop.

Riobux: Casual is a case of hit or miss. You either enjoy casual games just to pick up and love for a quick break or you just can't enjoy them due to the simplicity.

speedrockracer: how importand are graphics i personally think they do play a role in how intense you go in the game

[dec]Chaoman: ok, here'sa question for you since we are talking about graphics: do you  think that variability of play is better in a game? or do you think that more areas t oexplore would be better?

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: but the thing is that there can be casual commercial (popcap) or indie hardcore (trying to think up an example :P)

aNti_PXShaman: well graphics do make the game..... if they released a game now adays that looked like it was made in 1995 that game would not sell

.. World ..: If you say so, i,m just sayign repetitive stuff bores me. 

[UA]WelehoRogan: Ketchup- actually, I think indie games risk a lot more than any big company

spetnatz0warrior: ya

spetnatz0warrior: i agree

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUETSTION******

 

[14:29] rampantcoyote: If you are indie, create an indie game, and then sell it - lock, stock and barrel - to a publisher, does that mean the game WAS indie, and no longer is?

Jokәr: But alot of times it’s tried and true

[SFV]Android - Chris: well Ketchup, if a indy dev puts out one game and it gets massive attention, people will want him to make another game, and hes going to get pressured there

Sister Grimm™: hmmm...

spetnatz0warrior: is stull is indie

Jokәr: No, it means it never was.

{AFP}Nhb93: Well what exactly is a publisher?

oxyhemoglobin: Pretty much. It was independent. Now it's signed.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I think that the development without a publisher makes it still indie

[SFV]Android - Chris: yes, i think rampant's idea is right

.. World ..: The game was indie. Now the game is producer's since he bought the right to publish it

Theranos: Depends on Publisher I say...

[SFV]Android - Chris: no longer indy

spetnatz0warrior: cause if i made one, id stam[p a indie logo

[Xfire] Supercop007: I think Artaxs is right, essentially what made Portal from a good to a great game was the polish Valve's influence added.

speedrockracer: i dont think its indie if the company yuo sell it to chances it

oxyhemoglobin: If you were so desperate to hold onto the "indie" title, they should've held onto it and published it themselves.

Jokәr: I go back to my first point... If no one played it indie, it never was.

oxyhemoglobin: they*

Sister Grimm™: it was orignally indie i gues

Zombie: There is nothing wrong with making money from an indie game

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: What makes indie games great is that if the developer want to add something to it, he will, he won't have to go ask a million person only to know if he have the right to do it and if it will make him get more money.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Well we're getting heavily into opinion here.

oxyhemoglobin: No, but it ceases being indie at that point

{AFP}Nhb93: A publisher just helps get the game out of the door. That owuld be like saying if the bank gave you a $10K loan to help with the game that it's no longer indy because it has funding

[SFV]Android - Chris: the second you sell out, you are no longer doing this game as an individual, "indy"

Riobux: It means it's still indie. You still created the game through love and you still put your own ideas into it. It's like Metallica. They were sell outs and because of that, they were hated for their new material. But they are still loved for their old ones.

Jokәr: Debate is all really about opinion, though.

spetnatz0warrior: ye

Theranos: Games like portal are the only ways of taking a Corporate Game and calling it semi-indie

Jokәr: That’s really the essence of it.

Theranos: Does Semi-Indie exist or is it just me?

oxyhemoglobin: Agreed, Theranos

.. World ..: Portal got bought no?

[UA]WelehoRogan: so for you people, innovative=indie?

{AFP}Nhb93: Same

Zombie: As long as it was developed for the GAMERS, I would still call it Indie

Jokәr: No, I don’t think it does.

aNti_PXShaman: It would not be an indie game because people who think they are "cool" will just say they sold out basically

Sister Grimm™: wait... no its still indie because during production you had no corporate backing, you sold it post...

[SFV]Android - Chris: you have the right idea, but i dont think it exists, Theranos

Jokәr: Semi-indie = not indie.

Riobux: True Jokar, but the opinion is out there in the sky and people can take it if they like it.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: @Zombie I think we're twisting the meaning of indie then

oxyhemoglobin: No, corporate games can be innovative. It's extremely rare, but it happens.

Ketchup: I think it depends on the ethics of the publisher involved

Jokәr: You either are or your arn’t

.. World ..: Portal was made by students, but it got bought after.

[SFV]Android - Chris: Joker has it

spetnatz0warrior: anyone know how many companies orginated from Indie?

{AFP}Nhb93: Not nesecarliyu Rogan. Portal was innovation as was Super Mario Galaxy. Were either indy? Nope.

[UA]WelehoRogan: Exactly.

Riobux: Likely spetnaz, at least 90%.

Jokәr: Yea and then it got bundled into a $50 package - not indie.

speedrockracer: was for example tetis indie it was developed by a student ?

speedrockracer: tetris*

[Xfire] Supercop007: Once millions of dollars are added to promote, polish, edit, and test, I believe it transitions into mainstream.

Riobux: But then money has a habbit of corrupting people :(.

.. World ..: ofc

oxyhemoglobin: True.

Ketchup: I think certain publishers could take over an indie game and still manage to keep the game indie, EA wouldn't have a chance though

[UA]WelehoRogan: Well, corruption wouldn't exist if nothing was of value..

spetnatz0warrior: Indie it like the Father of Gaming companies, id thikn of all games from Indie

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: I think indie is more part of a person, when you create your game, you have to think that it's for divertisment/fun only. If not, I don't consider the game that the guy made as an indie game.

Theranos: But I just bought a $30 bundle from Introversion does that mean they aren't indie?

[SFV]Android - Chris: Supercop, there are full scale game companies that wish they had millions, doesnt make it less corporate

Sister Grimm™: this question just takes us back to "WHAT EXACTLY is indie?"

{AFP}Nhb93: Well I don't think Supercop, that an indy game would ever go mainstream. Then it has just turned against what it was.

spetnatz0warrior: ye i gree with tonny

Jokәr: I think once it’s owned by anyone *but* it’s original developer, (including the general public, if it becomes so much of a demand) it stops being indie.

aNti_PXShaman: Chances are, if a company was indie then they made a blockbuster game, and got bought out, I am 100 % sure that the company will force them to make a sequal that probably never be as good

oxyhemoglobin: I agree, Joker

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Hmmm, interesting thing came to my mind. What about clones of commercial games, made either to "improve" the gameplay or to copy it so that it can be distributed free/run on other systems (e.g. Linux)

Theranos: And then back to Who Decides what is Indie?

Riobux: EA could try to keep it indie, but it ends up too mainstream to enjoy how indie it is.

[SFV]Android - Chris: PXHsaman, very true

[SFV]Android - Chris: Dont we call those "mods", lunar?

{AFP}Nhb93: EA cares about the money, not so much the games

Recon.: EA is not even close to indie

Jokәr: I think even if an Indie game is a hit, and *stays* with it’s original company, the company stops being indie.

Riobux: You just don't feel the aura of "indieness" if you've got EA's name slapped across it.

Sister Grimm™: and then back to this question

spetnatz0warrior: THE PUBLIC AND THE DELEVEPLOR TEAM DIECIDES IF IT IS INDIE

.. World ..: no1 decide if the game is indie or not.  It's a characteristic that can be deducted from any1

[UA]WelehoRogan: What is indie is up to every single individual to make out themselves- It's like The Matrix; you gotta see it yourself

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *****SUB QUESTION*****

 

[14:31] John Bardinelli: You can watch an indie movie and know it's different from a Hollywood film. Can you do the same with indie games?

spetnatz0warrior: srry caplock

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: not necessarily, mods mean that it was built on another game

oxyhemoglobin: Absolutely, yes

Riobux: Even if they just publish it, they slap their name all over it.

{AFP}Nhb93: Why else do they crank out the game series all the time?

Jokәr: Yes, you can.

Jokәr: But

Sister Grimm™: no not really

.. World ..: Yes, of course

Jokәr: Sometimes it’s hard to determine

Recon.: special effects i would say

oxyhemoglobin: Mostly there are the massive splashscreens... Pages of credits...

{AFP}Nhb93: Agreed Joker

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: it could be built from scratch or use an open source engine

[SFV]Android - Chris: sometimes, its all in the immersion (if its really cheap i would think its indy, if its good i would say its pro)

spetnatz0warrior: No not rally

Cougar: i think that one of the things that diferentiates between indie and corporate and that makes portal not indie are the tools used

Sister Grimm™: i guess it depends

.. World ..: It is really visible that indies game have much less money invested in.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: (open source engine would be like any id engine that's been open sourced)

spetnatz0warrior: cause i mean, hollywood is all about action and stuts

Sister Grimm™: not always world

Riobux: Most of the time, yes. You can feel how it wasn't designed through hard work just to create a game. You just can't feel the love.

.. World ..: exemple, please

spetnatz0warrior: All Games have sdtudts

Theranos: You can and you can't, some games just have that indie feel that it isn't polished but this is only because most publishers will not release a non--shiny product

[UA]WelehoRogan: I like to think that indie games are something that isn't the developers' day job

Sister Grimm™: hmmm...

{AFP}Nhb93: I played the Gish Demo, and I have to say, from a gameplay and technical standpoint, it was a wonderful game. The graphics were also smooth enough to make the entire experience enjoyable

spetnatz0warrior: stunts*

aNti_PXShaman: What are indie games really trying to do with games?  They are trying to be noticed by bigger companies, I think few are trying to make the game for just making the game, but most are trying to get money out of it.

Jokәr: Some games have strange essense to it, but when you hit the credits and you see the words “developed by [insert indie here] and produced by IO interactive” it loses it’s indie-hood almost immediately.

oxyhemoglobin: If I had never heard of flOw before it was put on the PS3, I would've guessed that Sony had made it themselves. It really is that well-done.

{AFP}Nhb93: So it is someitmes hard to tell indy games apart

Riobux: It's sort of why home-made biscuits taste better than factory ones. Because you can really taste the care and love of each biscuit.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Well it's kind of hard to live without money

.. World ..: ofc

spetnatz0warrior: ye i agree

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: some people want to make an impression so that they can get a career

[SFV]Android - Chris: go look at Infinity: The Quest for Earth, its indy, but i guaruntee you, you will believe it isnt

Jokәr: Well, yea but the money doesn’t have to come from the game.

speedrockracer: money sux but its nice to have some

{AFP}Nhb93: Yup

Jokәr: Alot of indie devs do it for the fun.

Ketchup: I think you can distinguish between the two, but its often easier when you factor in the two's prefered platform, and graphics style

spetnatz0warrior: isent WOW indie?

[Xfire] Supercop007: I think it depends on the specific movie and genre to really tell if a movie is indie. In an action movie, it seems fairly obvious, but for a drama or something that requires much less special effects, the difference is harder to tell.

[UA]WelehoRogan: I wonder.. are the small company made Korean grindocres indie games?

Cougar: there are many indie games that are produced in a very professional way

oxyhemoglobin: WoW? Noooo.

aNti_PXShaman: no WoW is Blizzard

Jokәr: No, WoW is the opposite of indie.

spetnatz0warrior: ya

Theranos: No WoW is not indie

[SFV]Android - Chris: WOW? Indy? lol?

.. World ..: yarly

oxyhemoglobin: The polar opposite.

Riobux: Normally, the easiest sign of an indie company, is when you look at a company name and you think "who?".

Zombie: A motivation of mine to develop indie games would be to... get better at developing games

Sister Grimm™: alien hominid

spetnatz0warrior: blizzard ordinated from Indie

Jokәr: WoW is the essence of Mainstream

Riobux: *developer's name

spetnatz0warrior: so bacily is a Indie right?

aNti_PXShaman: LOST vikings ftw

oxyhemoglobin: Right. There are exceptions. Most people have never heard of IO. And others.

Theranos: Vivendi killed that pipe dream

[UA]WelehoRogan: Is Runescape Indie? it was made by an extremely small group of people?

spetnatz0warrior: ye

.. World ..: I guess so

spetnatz0warrior: i agree

Theranos: I think it is

Sister Grimm™: i supose

speedrockracer: no runescape just sux :P

Riobux: There are exceptions, but in general, it usually happens.

oxyhemoglobin: Yeah, Runescape is indie. But its an example of indie gone wrong. It sucks.

[SFV]Android - Chris: when it started it was indy, but i dunno about it now

Jokәr: Alot of people know IO... they were indie until Hitman 2 came out.

{AFP}Nhb93: That could be a debatable question right there

spetnatz0warrior: runescape gets boting after a while

[UA]WelehoRogan: lol, I think runescape is OK- it has a lot of the features required from a good MMO

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I like that phrase "indie gone wrong"

spetnatz0warrior: boring*

Riobux: It started indy, but you can really feel how they don't do it for enjoyment any more.

Sister Grimm™: don't forget Popcap

speedrockracer: runescape isnt ver inovative

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: No

oxyhemoglobin: It also... isn't fun.

Jokәr: no, it’s not.

FrostFenix: yeah runescape is indie, its the only indie game i know that has the worst graphics for an mmo and is very popular

oxyhemoglobin: It attracts the kids that want to play WoW but have no money.

Theranos: but they do mate lol they add stuff all the time

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: They should make more inovative games

 

[Xfire] SDaria: ****NEXT TOPIC*****

 

Clones! They're discussing calling  a  game indie when it's really just a clone of another game/type of game and whether or not that could still count. (there was no formal question)

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: All games starts by an idea. So at the begining of every game, it can be indie. After that, when you create your game, you have the choice of creating with your friends or by yourself only with what you have at the moment (your current computer, programs, ...) or make your idea stop beeing indie by telling it to big companies so that they can get money. So, my opinion is that the "indieness" of a game depends about what have been used to create the game

.. World ..: Runescape is old.  When it first was realsed as an indiv game, it became revolutional

{AFP}Nhb93: Runescape is lacking gameplay. IF the death penalty was changed and the controls could be changed i would play it

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Hah, my question has become official

Riobux: ...I don't even understand the question.

Jokәr: Well

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Riobux: grid wars

oxyhemoglobin: Agree/disagree with the statement

[UA]WelehoRogan: World is quite correct there =)

spetnatz0warrior: NO, clones are just like cheating off some in a test, they sould not, i disagree

Riobux: ...I'm still a little confused.

Theranos: Clones can be indie, knock-offs nope

Sister Grimm™: that opens up th idea of how no idea is REALLY original

[UA]WelehoRogan: Clones survive well, but I don't like them

[SFV]Android - Chris: Clones are clones, if its made by an indy dev or a corp dev

Jokәr: You gotta understand that when a game is cloned, not only is it’s clone mainstream, but the Original itself becomes mainstream as well

Ketchup: I think what makes a game indie are the ethics of the people who develop, not the actual content of the game

[UA]WelehoRogan: Some clones die, though. When SWG was morphed into EQ clone, it got a major blow

Sister Grimm™: some had to have thought of it before... at some point in time...

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: A indie games is good game created by talented developers who try to make something new.

Thats what I think

speedrockracer: a clone can be better than the original ...

Sister Grimm™: tru tru

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: well the thing is that some clones are made to improve on the original

oxyhemoglobin: Clones can be indie, sure. But most of them aren't. The big companies have no problem stealing their content from other people. But think about it. If you were going to make an indie game, wouldn't you think about it first? Try and come up with something no one has ever done before? The big companies can keep on making WWII shooters. What was the last indie WWII shooter you heard of?

aNti_PXShaman: I would consider an indie game something, of its own, I think if it is like the generic FPS the group wasn't trying there hardest.  I think a true indie company can make a game, and it would be like unique to the sense of gameplay and story

speedrockracer: so that would make the clon indie ?

Jokәr: If a game becomes popular enough to be cloned, it’s no longer indie in itself.

[SFV]Android - Chris: joker is probably right

.. World ..: ofc

FrostFenix: clones are fine just as long as it has its own storyline or some changes in gameplay, if its exactly like its original with a different name then its just lame

{AFP}Nhb93: I think that as long as there are good games beign made, by whoever, that are innovative, original, and fun, gamers will be happy? Agree?

spetnatz0warrior: guys, 90% if game companies originated from Indie, so i think 90% of the games should be Indie

Sister Grimm™: what an indie game was cloned by a major developer?

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Last indie WWII shooter? Red Orchestra

Jokәr: But, frost, by defenition, they aren’t their own game.

[SFV]Android - Chris: you usually see mods cloned by major devs, right?

spetnatz0warrior: ye

{AFP}Nhb93: CS

spetnatz0warrior: CS.1.6

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: yeah, BF1942 DC

Cougar: an indie game can be popular without losing the indie factor

Sister Grimm™: yeah

{AFP}Nhb93: True

spetnatz0warrior: tru tru

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: Big companies only try to get the best of everything so that their game looks nice, most of them don't care at all about if their game is great. They're just telling theirself : the graphics are nice, so people will buy it.

A lot of people would say that games like COD4 are better because of the graphics, but it means nothing, look at games like mario bros 1 : so the graphics makes nothing about a game

[UA]WelehoRogan: CS:S is a prime example of a clone game

Jokәr: No, I disagree

[SFV]Android - Chris: DC was bought out by EA, werent they?

FrostFenix: yeah

[Xfire] Supercop007: I think a cloned game should still count.  What makes the clone "count" is if it's improved upon and made better than the original.  If it's worse, then there isn't any reason not to just play the original.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: well

speedrockracer: i dont even know wht they cloned cs from ..

[SFV]Android - Chris: in the end, Supercop, thats the one and only truth

Theranos: CS:S was just a repolish and then it got left alone too long and got stale

Jokәr: I think if it’s a mainstream game, ESPECIALLY the whole Battlefield series, it’s not indie anymore.

FrostFenix: its very close but has differences that improve or make it worse

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: there is the fact that some worse indie games may be free compared to $50 for the newest good version of it

.. World ..: COD4 is better than most of the indie games because the game is more realist, trilling and fun.  It's normaly, the physics effect is much more worked on than what an indie developper would have worked on.

spetnatz0warrior: buts it still a clone, i mean would u like if someone copiled off u and got better marks thean u?

oxyhemoglobin: True, World

.. World ..: COD4 producers had the money

Cougar: does a flash game like Line Rider stop being indie after all the popularity it gained?

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: no

{AFP}Nhb93: Well Joker....indy is the exact opposite of mainstream so of course once it becomes mainstream its not longer indy

Riobux: Batllefield series have without a doubt lost it's "indiness after Battlefield 2.

aNti_PXShaman: What about desktop tower defense/

[SFV]Android - Chris: but COD4 is a corporate dev franchise, totally different tier

oxyhemoglobin: Nah, cause it hasn't sold out

spetnatz0warrior: no if its indie, then its indie

[UA]WelehoRogan: not at all. But if linerider 2 was developed by some major company, it'd not be indie

spetnatz0warrior: no one can change tht

Sister Grimm™: and back to the definition of INDIE

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: battlefield was never indie

FrostFenix: indie games shouldnt change just because it gains popularity

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: the mods like DC were

Ketchup: it's not whats in the game which makes a game indie - an indie game could be a clone or a mesh of other games and it wouldn't matter, a game is made indie by what the developers believe

FrostFenix: unless theres a clone that improves it

Jokәr: I disagree, chris... I think that maybe you can make a truly great game without sacrificing a high price for it.

[UA]WelehoRogan: and if the entity that made linerider grew into major proportions, it'd no longer be indie if they made LR 2

{AFP}Nhb93: No Cougar it doesn't. It's just a very fun game. Popular games are not always mainstream games.

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: The game before BF was indie i think

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: I dont know the name of it

spetnatz0warrior: i disagree frsot

speedrockracer: wel in the end you could say every shootr is a clone from dukenugem or some other old game ...

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: but it was a game with the first WW

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: doom

[UA]WelehoRogan: speed- they pretty much are

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: wolfenstein 3d

spetnatz0warrior: all games are related one way or another speed

speedrockracer: yess so when does a game decome a clone

Zombie: I agree with speedrockracer

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****

 

[14:45] John Bardinelli: Digital distribution makes it easier to sell games, cut and paste programs make it so you don't have to be a programming genius to make a game. But it's still no easy ride. In your experience (or opinion), what's the biggest obstacle independent developers face today?

Sister Grimm™: but then we have to consider "what is a clone"

[Xfire] Supercop007: Popularity is really independent of if it's indie or not, it's just that the chances of popularity rise considerably when money is added to the equation in the case of the "AAA", blockbuster-type of game

Jokәr: Ah, I’ve been waiting for this quesiton

[UA]WelehoRogan: just because game borrows features from another game doesn't mean it's bad

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: advertising

{AFP}Nhb93: If one games is successful, other games will try ot be it. Then we have a market full of BF and CoD clones

oxyhemoglobin: Absolutely advertising.

.. World ..: IMO, you can't legally make a good indie game without investing the money.  The programs, the team, to make the whole game a success requires good programs and a competant team that will ask for a salary.

oxyhemoglobin: You make a great game and no one ever hears about it. The ultimate failure of indie devs with no funds.

Riobux: I think it's either advertising, funds or just getting a team together.

[SFV]Android - Chris: marketing, easily, getting the game the attention it needs to blossum is the most challenging part

aNti_PXShaman: I think indie game developers should really strive to be unique, or try to find the gameplay that really suits them.

FrostFenix: i dissagree somewhat world

spetnatz0warrior: Funds, the ultimate Factor!!

Zombie: Games have been developed without a budget, World

Zombie: and spet

oxyhemoglobin: Without marketing?

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Really indie devs have to rely on word of mouth

Jokәr: The biggest problem facing Inde Devs is that you have to either spend years of your life developing your own engine, or use someone elses, which starts to blend into Modding.

Imperia: I fully disagree with requiring investment.

spetnatz0warrior: gimme a example Zombie

Imperia: Look at Dwarf Fortress.

Riobux: A team of developers can't be someone who thinks "alright, let's go make this game". It's got to be a very connected group of friends to create a truely indie game.

{AFP}Nhb93: Or the power of the internet

.. World ..: Maybe,. the idea and concept have been developped without a budget, but then, it got sold to a bigger company who worked to improve the graphics and game quality

spetnatz0warrior: any game need a set amount of funds

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: some of the best indie mods and games end up with 3 players on one server somewhere in Korea

speedrockracer: there is loads of free engines..

[SFV]Android - Chris: to suppliment Imperia: look at Infinity: The Quest for Earth again

{AFP}Nhb93: Like?

FrostFenix: i think if you spend the time in developing your game, and looking for every way to improve and try to make it original in some form or way that the gamers would enjoy.

{AFP}Nhb93: Name 3 free game engines

Jokәr: Yes, there are and all of them sacrifice the ease and cost for graphics and gameplay

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: quake2, quake3

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: that's 2

Riobux: Source is one Nbh93.

spetnatz0warrior: lol

oxyhemoglobin: Irrlicht Engine?

FrostFenix: cost comes along with the time and effort you put into the project

Sister Grimm™: awesomely addictiing game is "RAGEZONE" done with no money and only about 200 people know of it

Riobux: Well that's sorted.

Jokәr: oh, easy. Crystal , ASCII, and ElementEngine.

oxyhemoglobin: RAGE 3D?

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: The biggest obstacle is in my opinion is to get a good team around to create your game with, especially when you're young.

If you have no coding skill you can still make a good game though but it takes more time.

oxyhemoglobin: there's a pretty big list.

Theranos: if they license the engine then are they still indie?

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: RAGEZONE?

spetnatz0warrior: im opinion....Team...Funds...and Parting

FrostFenix: i agree killer

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: Isn't that a Server Development forum?

spetnatz0warrior: are the factors

Riobux: That's a hard one Theranos...

[SFV]Android - Chris: when indy dev groups get big, thats when the game boggs down, because they dont get paid for their work until its sold, and they have no motive to work on it

[dec]Chaoman: goblin: irrlich is a graphics engine :P

FrostFenix: especially finding a team that agrees and supports your effort is hard aswell

{AFP}Nhb93: Hmmm @ Theranos

Riobux: But personally, I doubt it. We're talking about indie games, why would a licencing of an engine affect the game?

Zombie: I agree with Frost

Sister Grimm™: yes RAGEZONE, free done by some college kids for fun

Ketchup: I think it would be easy to say that the competition from others in getting your game heard about is the biggest obsticle. I don't quite think that is the biggest obstacle, I think the biggest is making a fun game; and this is true for all developers. When talking about selling a game though, I think the biggest obstacle is making your game different from the rest to the extent that it stands out as well as enticing people in wanting to play it

[Xfire] Supercop007: As [TTHS]Lunarbunny mentioned, indie games rely on word of mouth.  The internet considerably amplifies this compared to 20 years ago when word of mouth was shareware disks.

{AFP}Nhb93: Exactly Supercop

[SFV]Android - Chris: wow, i can remember just a few years ago passing game cd's around to my friends to get them to try it

Theranos: yea think doom 1

aNti_PXShaman: I still do that chris

{AFP}Nhb93: Sites like newgrounds, addictggames, and miniclip have let small indy games get lots of popularity

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: It doesnt really matter in my opinion if you use tools like Game Maker 7 and RPG Maker XP like I do.

People are feeling good about the games I'm making although its not made with expensive engines.

Using your imagination is your strongest weapon.

oxyhemoglobin: I still pass around some mainstream disks because no one has heard of them. You wouldn't believe how many people have never heard of Morrowind (different story, since it's not indie)

Sister Grimm™: yeah look at alien hominid

Sister Grimm™: tiny indie game started on newgrounds

[UA]WelehoRogan: the most epic (heh, pun there) indie gamer ever made is Jazz Jackrabbit, and it borrowed a lot from Sonic.. and that I found through a shareware disk from a friend.

[SFV]Android - Chris: Jazz Jackrabbit... that game annoyed the heck out of me >.>

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: yeah my brother bought AH for the gamecube

Riobux: True Rebel, but you can't forget the power of a good team. It is a good team that shares one vision that creates a game that is good.

aNti_PXShaman: Jazz Jackrabbit was a good indie game imo

{AFP}Nhb93: If the devs are bad, the game will be bad, end of story

[SFV]Android - Chris: ^^

FrostFenix: Yes a team can change alot within a company

speedrockracer: i agree

oxyhemoglobin: Not necessarily. You can have a crap team of devs and as long as they have one good writer, you've at least got a plot.

aNti_PXShaman: Epic made Jazz jackrabbit right?

oxyhemoglobin: You can make a text-based adventure right there

[UA]WelehoRogan: it also depends on how the publisher/lead people treat the devs and such

[Xfire] SDaria: NOW I'LL BE PASTING THE CHOSEN USER QUESTIONS FROM THE QUESTION ROOM!

[UA]WelehoRogan: yup, Epic made JJ, there's the pun =)

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *****USER QUESTION*****

 

[14:52] John Bardinelli: [TTHS]Lunarbunny: What methods seem to work the best for getting the word out about an indie game?

{AFP}Nhb93: There's potential in good devs but if they are lacking a piece to the puzzle,  the puzzle will look bad at the end

Riobux: Maybe oxy, but you can't have a good text based adventure without a good team of other people.

{AFP}Nhb93: The internet

[SFV]Android - Chris: word of mouth, nuff said

Riobux: The internet without a shadow of doubt.

↙↖ĤÅ↗↘~¢ÎØwñ¿: Word of mouth.

Recon.: internet ads like ads on xfire, and other messengers

[UA]WelehoRogan: yup, intertube spreads the word nowadays

aNti_PXShaman: internet and word of mouth, with new technology advertising games realy isn't hard anymore

{AFP}Nhb93: Is the intnernet considered word of mouth?

Riobux: It's free to post on forums of flash communities that may enjoy it.

↙↖ĤÅ↗↘~¢ÎØwñ¿: And interent, youtube, and word of mouth from friend to friend

[SFV]Android - Chris: word out mouth = the series of tubes, imo

Sister Grimm™: word of keyboard?

oxyhemoglobin: Word of keyboard. haha. Great new phrase.

=WFC=Dranzer[CoD/OG]: I think the internet is word of mouth on steriods :p

[UA]WelehoRogan: yea, forums, banners on sites, all that jazz

Riobux: Maybe even ask people like Tom Fulp to give a good-old shout-out.

[dec]Chaoman: word of mouth worke the best I believe. ads help a lot too. the more people hear of something, the more curious they become.

Theranos: Random Surveys seem to get word around fast, some rating board leaks something and boom its popular

Ketchup: word of mouth, but it helps if you have a fun game

↙↖ĤÅ↗↘~¢ÎØwñ¿: Yes Riobux is correct.

[UA]WelehoRogan: make an YTMND clip out of it.

oxyhemoglobin: Sites like Digg seem to do the trick.

Riobux: Also, Beta's are very important. Not only will you get information what people think but it's free advertising.

oxyhemoglobin: YTMND only gets to so many eyes, though

{AFP}Nhb93: Yeah Kwtchup. Even if the word goes around, and the game is bad, the word will stop going around

[UA]WelehoRogan: yea =/

Theranos: o also the best way is Broken Embargos...

↙↖ĤÅ↗↘~¢ÎØwñ¿: Once again Riboux is correct.

Ketchup: if you can get a good thread on 4chan, you could get a lot of visits

Sister Grimm™: deviantart is always an option

[SFV]Android - Chris: well i dont like ads that much, because when i see and ad for an indy game on a crappy indy game site, it kinda turns me off, thinking its something similar

.. World ..: 4chan could also destroy the game, you know.

oxyhemoglobin: I agree fully, Riobux

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: @Riobux yeah, betas probably make better advertising than they do feedback

Theranos: o god 4chan could also kill your site

Ketchup: fair point world

oxyhemoglobin: Haha, 4chan has destroyed many games >_>

Sister Grimm™: lol /b/

[SFV]Android - Chris: 4chan could destory the world if it wanted to >.>

oxyhemoglobin: Hey

oxyhemoglobin: hey

[UA]WelehoRogan: lol, yep, the ever-so-almighty 4chan, with it's exponentially rising useramounts

[Xfire] SDaria: *****USER QUESTION*****

oxyhemoglobin: hey

oxyhemoglobin: hey

 

[Xfire] SDaria: [14:54] John Bardinelli: #-(OO۩Tony  Briere۩ OO)-#: How do you get your original ideas for your games, do you take ideas from other games or you just have an idea like this that comes from nowhere?

oxyhemoglobin: you don't take about /b/

oxyhemoglobin: talk*

[SFV]Android - Chris: i dont think that question is for us...

[UA]WelehoRogan: oxy, shush

[UA]WelehoRogan: you only say rules 1 & 2

[Xfire] SDaria: it could be for you. I'm sure some of you out  there have created games!

Riobux: Can't say I have...

{AFP}Nhb93: Well the best ideas, I feel, are the most original ones. No that doesn't mean a war game is unoriginal. it is a god setting for the reason for people to be shooting at each other

Theranos: i think the best ideas come with some kinda assistance... such as alcohol or something

[SFV]Android - Chris: i know someone in here is working on one... but kinda limits the discussion from the majority

[UA]WelehoRogan: Thera- agreed =P

Riobux: Alcohol, drugs...Dreams...Who knows?

.. World ..: I indie game concept are from the makers, and not other games, even though many indy game are just plain MMO grind, there is always some special touch from the maker

.. World ..: They've gotta come out from the crowd, afterall

Ketchup: I think you need a really vivid imagination to be able to create fun ideas for games, even better if your mind is as child like as possible

aNti_PXShaman: But everything pretty much has been made and being original is really hard now, I think it is the companies ability to bring back a certain Genre which is what makes the game unique

Sister Grimm™: that dog that keeps talking to you...

{AFP}Nhb93: If a game is just like a clone....then why play it? You've already played it 4 other times

Sister Grimm™: or the refridgerator...

speedrockracer: when i try to make a game (never realy worked) i just had a moment of inspiration ....

Zombie: Everyone and their mother (if their mother plays games) has a general idea for a game

.. World ..: haha

{AFP}Nhb93: nice

Theranos: dreams are good too

Zombie: But it's not easy keeping your ideas from mixing with the games you've played before

 

[Xfire] SDaria: [14:57] John Bardinelli: W00tbeer1: Do you ever play the games you create on your own free time?

[SFV]Android - Chris: everyone's mother's do have ideas for games... probably a scrabble clone, lol

[Xfire] SDaria: ***USER QUESTION ABOVE****

Sister Grimm™: but not everyone has an idea that'll sell

.. World ..: I agree to this funny statement.  There are as much good original ideas as the quantity of different snowflakes in my backyard

Ketchup: I think collaboration with other people helps too, developing ideas in tangent with others really helps to get some nice ideas

Riobux: True Shaman, but you have to keep in mind that back in 1980 it probably appeared that most ideas have already been used.

{AFP}Nhb93: Hmmm......well if you made it I would assume it would be boring, considering you know every part of it and how to beat it.

Zombie: I agree with Ketchup

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: creativity would be boring if it came to everybody all the time

Theranos: i had a 3d asteroids games with millions of asteroids in a small box... youd die really quickly but it was fun for hours on end and i made it in 2 hours

[SFV]Android - Chris: As technology improves, you will find people using it to make very creative results

Sister Grimm™: and the muses would get tired

Riobux: Exactly Chris.

speedrockracer: i owuld play it mutieplay and own every1 cuz i know everything about the game Xd

[dec]Chaoman: to answer wootbeer's question. Yes I do. I never like to make a game I don't enjoy. I believe if I can't enjoy it, other's won't, and I should not be making it.

Riobux: So as technology improves, we'll have games that were just not possible now.

W00tbeer1: Thanks for the answers guys, I really appreciate it

[dec]Chaoman: not a problem.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: lol

 

[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION ___FROM SEVERAL*****

 

[14:59] John Bardinelli: And to rounds things out today, several chatters want to know what each of your favorite games are.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Portal

Sister Grimm™: Portal

Ketchup: Whenever I've made my own games, I play them for a while; but I don't really play them for long periods of time. I think part of the fun of making games is knowing what other peoples reactions to the games are.

Riobux: Rune Viking Warlord, no contest.

Theranos: UPLINK!

aNti_PXShaman: woohoo DoTa

Recon.: Call of duty 4

speedrockracer: supreme commander

{AFP}Nhb93: Portal was mad fun. No arguments to that

.. World ..: best indie game ever = Portal

Recon.: although its not indie

Sister Grimm™: here here!

.. World ..: not anymore, sadly

{AFP}Nhb93: Portal is not indy by any means.

Sister Grimm™: wait no

<CNN>DGMurdockIII: i love kings quest

Sister Grimm™: its fun...

[SFV]Android - Chris: lol? Sword of the Stars, Empire at War, Mass Effect, Infinite: TQFE (when it comes out) | the question didnt ask for indy games ;D

{AFP}Nhb93: Valve made it and sold it in OB, not indy anymore

Sister Grimm™: ooo I forgot about mass effect

Ketchup: I really liked goldeneye

Ketchup: portal and teamfortress 2 are fun too

{AFP}Nhb93: Didn't everyone

.. World ..: Portal was the best indie created game imo.  I have no favourite best published indie game, however.

speedrockracer: Xd runescape nooooooot

[SFV]Android - Chris: on a sidenote: Mass Effect vs Faux = epic

spetnatz0warrior: how is mass affect anyway?

Recon.: JUICED 2

aNti_PXShaman: Quick question, would you consider user mods for a game Indie?  They meet the definition, but would the debaters here consider them india?

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I would

Theranos: sure

Riobux: Yes, without a doubt.

[SFV]Android - Chris: yes, mods are indy

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: TCs

{AFP}Nhb93: They are

Riobux: They created a game for the joy of it.

Ketchup: I think it depends on the scope of the mods

Sister Grimm™: resident evil will always have a special spot in my heart

FrostFenix: Theres too many games for me to list but ill list the current ones im playing, Mabinogi, CSS, EQ2, (used to play) Ragnarok Online, and my DS games

speedrockracer: depends on how diferent they are form the original

{AFP}Nhb93: Except for Garry's Mod....Valve now sells that

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I'd say TCs can be considered such

Riobux: How does it speed just out of interest?

[SFV]Android - Chris: they (mods) fit the general definition of indy better than full indy games

Recon.: Battlefield 2 was good until the collision detection went insane

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: but simple mods aren't as much a separate game

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: went?

#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: thanks everyone : )

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: it wa wonky from the start

Recon.: it was good until a late patch

[dec]Chaoman: usually when I come up with a game. it usually just comes to me. Sometimes I find i am inspired by other games ar cartoons.

[UA]WelehoRogan: I'm pretty sure people would in the end agree if definition of indie was that there is only one company making it, not team that makes it and another company that sort of brands it

aNti_PXShaman: WC 3, UT, Bf 1942 have some very good mods for them that really have been keeping the series alive

[TTHS]Lunarbunny: was*

speedrockracer: depends

Riobux: On?

[SFV]Android - Chris: epic debate guys =D

{AFP}Nhb93: Definately

[UA]WelehoRogan: yup

Theranos: nice debate

Sister Grimm™: for sure

Jokәr: Thanks for inviting me, guys! It was fun!

Ketchup: fun fun fun

FrostFenix: yep was fun

Riobux: It was a great debate. Thanks a lot for this.

Recon.: yea was fun

{AFP}Nhb93: I'm glad I was finally home for one

aNti_PXShaman: I am sad I came in a little late....

Sister Grimm™: oodle of bunches of fun...

.. World ..: Awesome debate ~~~~~ Grats to everyone!

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: Who won?

[UA]WelehoRogan: lol

Riobux: Won?

.. World ..: you

[SFV]Android - Chris: they havnt said yet

Jokәr: lol

Sister Grimm™: lol

[Xfire] Artaxs: Wait.  There was a Shining Force 3?!?

Imperia: yea

[SFV]Android - Chris: stefan is dissapointed over not winning yesterday =P

Sister Grimm™: I WON THE DEBATE! BECAUSE I AM AWESOME!

{AFP}Nhb93: haha

KillerStefan/RetroRebel:  .. World ..: lies

spetnatz0warrior: really?

Riobux: Oh wow!

Theranos: Recount

spetnatz0warrior: ;p;

Riobux: Shit.

=WFC=Dranzer[CoD/OG]: I missed a lot of it :/

[SFV]Android - Chris: Riobux

{AFP}Nhb93

Recon.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny

Ketchup

.. World ..: hatemore lol»?

Ketchup: yeeeeeeey

{AFP}Nhb93: What's that list Chris?

[SFV]Android - Chris: winners

Riobux: Wow...Thanks a lot.

Recon.: wat do i get?

Jokәr: Aww... oh well. Nice job guys

{AFP}Nhb93: Sweet!

spetnatz0warrior: nice job

 

[SFV]Android - Chris: (1) game from Amaranth Games

(1) copy of Rampant Games' "Void War"

(1) uTime Games prize pack (a copy of "Dough Nuts!" and 800 gold in "PseudoQuest")

(1) Xfire T-shirt

 

[Xfire] Supercop007: Congrats to all the winners!

{AFP}Nhb93: Joker I think deserved something from that

[SFV]Android - Chris: + gish

Riobux: I'm seriously amazed I won something.

Recon.: sweet!

{AFP}Nhb93: Thanks SUpercop

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: [00:04] [SFV]Android - Chris: stefan is dissapointed over not winning yesterday =P

 

DID I SAID THAT LOLS

=WFC=Dranzer[CoD/OG]: congrats to winners :D

KillerStefan/RetroRebel: Gratz

spetnatz0warrior: wow i neva won:(

.. World ..: How do you know if you won lol?

Theranos: Gratz

spetnatz0warrior: oh

spetnatz0warrior: BYE guys

=WFC=Dranzer[CoD/OG]: bye

{AFP}Nhb93: I think all the winners deserved the prizes though.....even others who didn't win deserved something I think

Sister Grimm™: when do we find out who gets places in the debate clan

.. World ..: Grats to the winners

Recon.: THANK YOU

{AFP}Nhb93: lol

[SFV]Android - Chris: Nhb, your more than welcome to send me one of your prized

[SFV]Android - Chris: prizes*

[dec]Chaoman: I'll see you all later. It wasnice chatting with you.

Ketchup: so if it was 0123123123, you type +44 123123123

{AFP}Nhb93: see ya. Goood debating

Riobux: Yeah.

Ketchup: see you

oxyhemoglobin: Aaalright. See you folk at the next eventr. Grats to the winners.

oxyhemoglobin: event*

Ketchup: byee

Riobux: Bye everyone and thanks.